At 02:51 PM 10/30/2002 -0800, Robert Roehm wrote:
>WTF?!?!?! Why did Yahell do this to me and the rest of us?
>
>I will not re-start the group. I give up.
>
>I was following the "firewall" rule in hardcore fashion- members with no age
>in the profiles were denied and received this emailed message, if an e-mail
>address was provided:
I've said it elsewhere, I'll say it here (Late, I'll admit, but hey, that's
lack of internet access for you), and it's not a pretty thing...
The "Firewall" system:
The Firewall system on Yahoo! Groups is a dual-check system for blocking
minors from adult content on Yahoo! Groups.
The first part of this system checks the official age entered by the user
when they sign up for the account. Please note: This is completely
uncorrelated to the age setting in a user's profile, which may not exist,
or may be fictional. A user who does not pass this primary check is not
permitted access to the adult content.
The second part of the firewall system is a click contract that stores a
cookie on the users computer for access to adult sections of the system.
This is the primary "active" section fo the firewall. This section itself
can be viewed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/adutconf (This is the LIVE page
for this, and will check for proper age settings in the account, as well as
setting the cookie if you click accept). Users MUST pass through this on an
account to get to any age-restricted sections of Yahoo! Groups, though the
cookie is stored once you have gone through it once, and this page will not
be re-presented unless the user logs out.
Basically, "checking for ages in profiles" makes ABSOLUTELY no difference
whatsoever to Yahoo. If you do, or if you don't it will make no difference
in the long run. What DOES make a difference is as follows:
1: Complaints
Yahoo has primarily a zero-research multi-strike policy. Weighted by the
"content", multiple complaints against a group will rarely, if ever, be
researched, and the group will be deleted with no explanation. Any
complaints with threats of legal action, or about things that may result in
legal action (Copyright infringement, etc) are generally shoot first, dodge
questions later concerns.
2: Resource Usage
Resource usage is a sticky thing on Yahoo. It's based on several factors,
including but not limited to bandwidth consumed by a group, and disk space
consumed by a group. This tends to ding high-bandwidth groups, and any
groups that get "leeched" regularly. There is a "warning level" that is
quite low relatively, and the kill zone is arbitrary.
3: Legal Sweep
This is based 100% on message, file, and photo section content. Lots of
files posted by many people, lots of binary attachments by many people,
tend to flag a manual sweep. The people who do the manual sweeps are
partially rated on how many things they process, and on how many groups
they process. Since processing an entire group counts for more, and
"Ooops, looks illegal, *thwack!*" counts as processing a group (And all the
items in it), they are trigger-happy. This includes also anything they
think -MIGHT- be copyright infringement. Yahoo! is exceptionally stringent
on this policy.
Those are the three main official things. Then, as always:
4: Stick up Ass Syndrom
Needs no explanation. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody
for any reason or no reason at all".
It's kind of sad that all these groups have been monitoring profile ages
are not really safe at all. :( Anybody who put a low age in the original
sign up can't GET to the groups if they are in the adult section, anybody
who DOES get to the group at all has already passed the firewall. And
people who signed up 5 years ago when they were 16 would be old enough now,
but the profile does NOT auto-update.
So, simply put, checking the profile ages is a complete waste of time, an
annoyance to the mods, an annoyance to some members, and quite literally
does no good in protecting the group from deletion. In fact, it can have
the opposite of the intended effect, as groups that deny a lot of members,
or that "clean up" frequently get flagged as possible "eleet (Closed
group/illegal) file sharing groups", and put under heightened scrutiny.
Of course, the profile checking CAN have the benefits of catching spam
senders, but that is usually better performed by such things as "Moderate
new members" or other moderation tactics.
I will likely be dropping in on Yahoo for more info in the near future, and
see if I can get it, but that is the info I have right now.
- Kit
Okay, at this point, I have re-contacted Yahoo and the information I have
received is that Moderator/owners of the group can request to find out WHY
the group has been deleted, however all the groups involved were deleted
for ToS violations. There was an absolute refusal on Yahoo's part to
advise what specific section of the ToS was used to term the groups. So I
am going through the ToS right now and finding noteworthy parts. Depending
on how they decide to enforce, we could be in extreme trouble.
Section 2:
You understand and agree that the Service is provided "AS-IS" and that
Yahoo assumes no responsibility for the timeliness, deletion, mis-delivery
or failure to store any user communications or personalization settings.
Section 6:
You agree to not use the Service to:
a. upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content
that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious,
defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy,
hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
---------
The above section is the stick-ass catch all.
"Unlawful" in this context can include "unlawful" -ANYWHERE- in the world,
technically.
"Harmful" is subjective.
"Vulgar"...
vul·gar
adj.
1. Crudely indecent.
2.
1. Deficient in taste, delicacy, or refinement.
2. Marked by a lack of good breeding; boorish. See Synonyms at
common.
3. Offensively excessive in self-display or expenditure;
ostentatious: the huge vulgar houses and cars of the newly rich.
3. Spoken by or expressed in language spoken by the common people;
vernacular: the technical and vulgar names for an animal species.
4. Of or associated with the great masses of people; common.
Any of these can be applied to a great many groups, however, something as
simple as allowing profanity to stay on the group can constitue the
material being vulgar.
"Obscene"...
ob·scene (b-sn, b-)
adj.
1. Offensive to accepted standards of decency or modesty.
2. Inciting lustful feelings; lewd.
3. Repulsive; disgusting:
I hate to say it, but what furry erotic art group doesn't incite feelings
of lust amongst many furries? Any adult groups can be whacked for this one.
"racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;" is also a big problem
here. It does not define to who or how many who's. If the person reviewing
the group decides that a picture of a furry cute girl is objectionable to
them, the group gets axed.
---------------
b. harm minors in any way;
---------------
A big problem with public view for any furry group. Especially since Yahoo
does not follow the supreme court decision that made images of smaller mice
and bigger cats not considered child material. They can get very grumpy on
this matter.
---------------
f. upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content
that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other
proprietary rights ("Rights") of any party;
---------------
Yahoo errs on the side of thwack now, ignore questions later on
this. Parody artwork will kill a group nice and fast.
---------------
... Yahoo and its designees shall have the right to remove any Content that
violates the TOS or is otherwise objectionable. ...
---------------
ob·jec·tion·a·ble
adj.
Arousing disapproval; offensive
Worded so loosely that it doesn't matter WHO or HOW MANY object to it or
are offended by it. Again, Ass-and-stick loophole.
---------------
---------------
Also be aware of the following:
---------------
... you grant Yahoo the following world-wide, royalty free and
non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:
* With respect to photos, graphics, audio or video you submit or make
available for inclusion on publicly accessible area of the Service other
than Yahoo! Clubs or Yahoo! Groups, the license to use, distribute,
reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such
Content on the Service solely for the purpose for which such Content was
submitted or made available. This license exists only for as long as you
elect to continue to include such Content on the Service and will terminate
at the time you remove or Yahoo removes such Content from the Service.
* With respect to Content other than photos, graphics, audio or video you
submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the
Service other than Yahoo! Clubs or Yahoo! Groups, the perpetual,
irrevocable and fully sublicensable license to use, distribute, reproduce,
modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display
such Content (in whole or in part) and to incorporate such Content into
other works in any format or medium now known or later developed.
----------------
The above is the well known controversy over the concept of "They are
demanding that I give up my copyright!"... Well, the copyright on IMAGES
and imagery in general is not a problem, due to "This license exists only
for as long as you elect to continue to include such Content on the Service
and will terminate at the time you remove or Yahoo removes such Content
from the Service."
HOWever... For all you story writers, be VERY VERY cautious posting any
stories to Yahoo! maintained web sites (Clubs and Groups are safe, but that
is the ONLY thing that is safe.)
"With respect to Content other than photos, graphics, audio or video ...
the perpetual, irrevocable and fully sublicensable license to use ..."
ie, Yahoo owns it forever more.
--------------------------
And, of course, the absolute stick-in-ass catch-all:
Section 13:
You agree that Yahoo, in its sole discretion, may terminate your password,
account (or any part thereof) or use of the Service, and remove and discard
any Content within the Service, for any reason, including, without
limitation, for lack of use or if Yahoo believes that you have violated or
acted inconsistently with the letter or spirit of the TOS. Yahoo may also
in its sole discretion and at any time discontinue providing the Service,
or any part thereof, with or without notice. You agree that any termination
of your access to the Service under any provision of this TOS may be
effected without prior notice, and acknowledge and agree that Yahoo may
immediately deactivate or delete your account and all related information
and files in your account and/or bar any further access to such files or
the Service. Further, you agree that Yahoo shall not be liable to you or
any third-party for any termination of your access to the Service.
-------------
They can turn things off for any reason or no reason with no warning or
explanation required.
-------------
SOOOooooo...
Basically, like I said above, stripping out users over Profile stuff is
100% useless, all furry groups are, unfortunately, doomed from the
beginning, and left to Yahoo's masochistic tendencies. Almost ANY group
service will have similar rules, however Yahoo has obviously demonstrated a
complete disregard for its users in enforcing these rules, and a completely
militant enforcement policy. As such, fidning other server space for the
groups would be an EXCELLENT idea, if/when possible.
Hell, even MSN Groups isn't this bad. (I know, there have been hundreds of
ToS complaints against one group that DESERVES to be shut down, but still
exists.)
So, do your research, find a new host, and move, is the best advice I can give.
- Kit, again.
This message, as per standard copyright laws, is copyrighted to me,
however, permission to reproduce this message exists for all members of
furry groups to any other furry groups. Reproduction of this message to
other furry groups, especially adult furry groups, is actually encouraged,
to educate the thousands of users we have about the dangers Yahoo presents
to our peaceful discussions and artwork.
Received on Fri Nov 22 2002 - 16:45:00 CST